16 replies to this topic

[DropThePuck]

The hits just keep on coming

"Is it going to take a death to make the NHL see the problem?" said Dr. Charles Tator, a professor of neurosurgery at the University of Toronto, who has treated NHL players with concussions.

<OCR link>

[Dutch Duck]

Sounds like something we should worry about...
But did somebody care to check those numbers?

"They've not dealt with it at all," said Tim Danson, a Toronto attorney representing former Phoenix Coyote Steve Moore in a lawsuit stemming from a 2004 on-ice attack by then-Vancouver forward Todd Bertuzzi.

Last time I checked Steve Moore was playing for the Colorado Avalanche. If they can't get that right, maybe they have made up some of the numbers too, right?

[DropThePuck]

Hockey concussions' toll unknown

"Obviously, the potential for another one is there," said Ducks forward Andy McDonald, who has had at least three concussions. "I don't know how many it would take to cause me to retire. But I try not to think about that too much."
...
"What are the effects going to be five, 10 years from now, 20 years from now?" said the Ducks' McDonald. "Are you going to be affected by five or six concussions you had in your NHL career, and that's a little bit scary. I hope there are no long-term effects from these injuries and guys are able to have a life after hockey.

"I guess it's just kind of wait and see."

<link to OCR article part 2>

[Duckette]

And concussions aren't just separate to the NHL. All hockey leagues of all levels are filled with concussions. I've had a concussion as well as several kids on my team. Concussions are a sport-wide problem. Maybe they should focus more on the helmets and less on the slimmer look

[Dark Knight]

...Maybe they should focus more on the helmets and less on the slimmer look

Words of wisdom

[432j]

Sounds like something we should worry about...
But did somebody care to check those numbers?

"They've not dealt with it at all," said Tim Danson, a Toronto attorney representing former Phoenix Coyote Steve Moore in a lawsuit stemming from a 2004 on-ice attack by then-Vancouver forward Todd Bertuzzi.

Last time I checked Steve Moore was playing for the Colorado Avalanche. If they can't get that right, maybe they have made up some of the numbers too, right?

I've had the opportunity to um, observe, some of Scott Reid's previous work.

I would not trust his analysis or use of numbers any more than I put faith in the Kings goaltending last year.

That's not to say that concussions aren't a problem in this sport, or any other for that matter. Simply, that I think his work is highly suspect and that the "facts" are likely twisted to support his hypothesis.

The truth of the matter is that we've seen Mr. Reid author how many stories about hockey over the years?

And, seriously, raise your hand if you think concussions are a more appropriately handled in any other sports. The NFL just this year finally decided that someone who has a concussion can't re-enter the same game.

As for Duckette's comment about focusing on helmets instead of the new-look jerseys, that's very fashionable to pick on the new uni's, but the changes in helmet technology over the past 10-12 years has been tremendous. Go into any hockey shop now and you'll see helmets with occipital protection, which is a significant advance over where they were 5 years ago. The state-of-the art helmet 5 years ago was significantly more advanced than that of 10 years ago. I can pull several models from my own collection to illustrate the point.

[LightItUp4126]

I don't understand how lighter helmets make safer helmets though... Lighter helmets are thinner plastic and less padding, so...

[Duckette]

As for Duckette's comment about focusing on helmets instead of the new-look jerseys, that's very fashionable to pick on the new uni's, but the changes in helmet technology over the past 10-12 years has been tremendous. Go into any hockey shop now and you'll see helmets with occipital protection, which is a significant advance over where they were 5 years ago. The state-of-the art helmet 5 years ago was significantly more advanced than that of 10 years ago. I can pull several models from my own collection to illustrate the point.

I realize this. I play hockey and I know the equipment. I've looked at helmets in the pro-shop and everything, but my point is that if people are still getting concussions, the technology obviously isn't good enough. Slimmer jerseys are just for looks, but a lot of money has been invested into that and a lot of time. Why not put a lot of hype around improving helmets? Usually when something gets a lot of media attention, it improves a lot faster. The helmets might be better, but they're obviously not adequate.

[432j]

I realize this. I play hockey and I know the equipment. I've looked at helmets in the pro-shop and everything, but my point is that if people are still getting concussions, the technology obviously isn't good enough. Slimmer jerseys are just for looks, but a lot of money has been invested into that and a lot of time. Why not put a lot of hype around improving helmets? Usually when something gets a lot of media attention, it improves a lot faster. The helmets might be better, but they're obviously not adequate.

I understand your point, and I'm not suggesting that it's invalid. I also didn't intend for my comments to be as harsh as they may read back now.

But, I think the fact of the matter is that it's clear that quite a bit has been invested into improving helmets, which used to be pieces of thin plastic with some thick foam.

Of course, I'm also of the mind that the helmets aren't the problem nearly as much a number of other factors - or, put another way, I feel many of the concussions aren't a result of the players hitting their heads on the ice, glass or boards. Rather, it's a matter of being hit so hard that the concussions come from the brain hitting the skull. No helmet is going to protect against that.

With players being bigger, strong, faster, etc. it's probably more accurate to blame the players' training, skate technology, other pieces of equipment that help players feel invincible and perhaps even the quality of the ice.

I have no problem with there being a major campaign to eliminate concussions, but that's totally unrelated to the new jerseys.

[Just Duckie]

The NHL does need to do something about hits to the head, even if they are legal hits; an open ice hit from a player leading with his shoulder can be almost as bad a hit with an elbow. And I do think some players do go headhunting. The tricky thing is though, players do need to keep their heads up too.

[LightItUp4126]

The problem isn't that we need to find someone to blame though, just a way to fix it. Pointing a finger just causes more problems and it's better if we all work together to try to fix the situation.

[432j]

The problem isn't that we need to find someone to blame though, just a way to fix it. Pointing a finger just causes more problems and it's better if we all work together to try to fix the situation.

I agree.

IMO, the problem isn't technology, but rules.

If the majority of concussions are caused by hits that are deemed legal, where is the answer?

I think it's very easy to say, "well, you just eliminate hits to the head."

At the same time, I think we all realize that results in what I see in youth hockey all the time when I'm coaching: big players get penalized for nearly all contact with small players.

Frankly, I don't think the game can evolve into a sport where the Ryan Shannon and Andy Mac size players are literally exempt from being touched. Penner, Pronger and guys that size would go to the box every shift.

Somewhere in the middle, obviously, is the answer.

However, getting back to the Register series, Mr. Reid's premise is that the league is doing nothing - which is a load of hogwash. They've been debating exactly what we've discussed in this thread. Only they've not come to resolution. That's a big difference.

Perhaps Mr. Reid would like to see the resolution be the elimination of all contact. Then again, we know he doesn't give a rip about the sport, so I'm sure he wouldn't mind seeing the NHL just up and die.

Finally, I could tear his articles to shreds with all the holes in logic and mis-used numbers, etc. But, let me just pose this fundamental question: why all the NFL numbers to illustrate a problem in the NHL? That's a totally flawed look at the problem in hockey, and I'd maintain it's so flawed that it completely invalidates nearly all of his contentions.

[LightItUp4126]

It's impossible to take the physical game out oh hockey. It's like taking the puck out of hockey, it's just not natural. There's no way that 10 guys on a 50 foot sheet of ice can play this emotional of a sport and not hit someone. The idea of the game though isn't to be headhunting cheap shot artists. In my opinion the hits are supposed to be rare, and only used when they need to knock someone off the puck. Not when someone skates behind the net should they be able to pin them up against the glass off the ground or be like Boogaard and throw knees at people in their defensive zone. That's not hockey, it's just reckless endangerment.

[Duckette]

I understand your point, and I'm not suggesting that it's invalid. I also didn't intend for my comments to be as harsh as they may read back now.

But, I think the fact of the matter is that it's clear that quite a bit has been invested into improving helmets, which used to be pieces of thin plastic with some thick foam.

Of course, I'm also of the mind that the helmets aren't the problem nearly as much a number of other factors - or, put another way, I feel many of the concussions aren't a result of the players hitting their heads on the ice, glass or boards. Rather, it's a matter of being hit so hard that the concussions come from the brain hitting the skull. No helmet is going to protect against that.

With players being bigger, strong, faster, etc. it's probably more accurate to blame the players' training, skate technology, other pieces of equipment that help players feel invincible and perhaps even the quality of the ice.

I have no problem with there being a major campaign to eliminate concussions, but that's totally unrelated to the new jerseys.

I agree with you on that as well. I think that some of the concussions are coming from the brutal hits in ways that helmets can't protect as well. And I didn't mean to relate it to the new jerseys. I was just using that as an example. Like, instead of focusing on new looks and other things, focus on helmets. Get what I'm saying? Kinda? I wasn't trying to blame it on the jerseys, I was just trying to use an example on how focus isn't completely on things such as that

[Reb]

So, correct me if I'm wrong, you both are saying the league could/should put focus, emphasis, on something that really is important to players health and welfare than on frivolous cosmetic stuff just to squeeze a few more bucks outta the purchasing public ... Am I right?

[Duckbill]

If I might add something to this discussion. I don't like how the "copycats" article depicts hockey fights. Do the people writing these articles understand how the actual fights are a result of players defending themselves and teammates? Or how fighting very rarely contributed to any kind of damage compared to the cheap headshots that usually cause such brawls?

The Ducks may be a hard hitting team and we dished out our share of hits but there were plenty of times down the stretch where our skill guys were taking shot after shot and we had to step up to protect them. Remember when the Blackhawks were targeting Andy McDonald? Or Derek Boogard throwing around his knee in the playoffs? No equipment change or improvement is going to stop a guy like Boogard if he thinks he is going to get away with injuring a guy. Ulf Sammuelsson rings a bell too.

[432j]

So, correct me if I'm wrong, you both are saying the league could/should put focus, emphasis, on something that really is important to players health and welfare than on frivolous cosmetic stuff just to squeeze a few more bucks outta the purchasing public ... Am I right?

No, honestly, I'm not saying that at all.

The truth of the matter is that the two items are completely unrelated - and there is room for the league to both have new jersey ("cosmetic" as you put it) and the important. The resources exist for the league to implement new jerseys and to deal with the issues surrounding head injuries.

But, the truth of the matter is that selling jerseys is part of the reason the cap continues to climb. Frankly, that revenue may be more important this year than either of the other post-lockout seasons. The NHL needs the growth momentum to continue.

So, are concussions more important that fashion? Absolutely.

Does that mean the league should stop dealing with revenue-generation? Heck no, IMO.