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The Bob Murray Thread


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#3276 mighty all the way

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 04:23 PM

But if they keep getting the 8th seed and not the cup then it will hurt them.

#3277 DuckNoire

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 12:48 AM

It might, but if they win a Cup won't it have been worth it? The Pronger and Niedermayer signings hurt the Ducks in the long-term but winning it all in 2007 made it all worth it to me!


I agree. Plus I think most team will have to take some risks in the cap era to win the cup.

#3278 letsgoducksdotcom

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 08:12 AM

But if they keep getting the 8th seed and not the cup then it will hurt them.


Right, but if they stood pat and talked about their prospects and relied on their former core of Kopitar Brown etc they'd miss the playoffs 2 out of every 3 years like some other team I know too well.

The price of an established, game-changing center is high. If you want to have one you are gonna have to pay to get it if you don't get lucky in the draft.

And Carter/Richards may or may not have been the right guys for us, they contracts may or may not be too long. But the fact is that the teams that are winning are doing it with better players than us, and by and large they are getting and keeping these players on these high and/or long term deals. Meanwhile, Columbus, Edmonton, Anaheim are operating as the farm teams. Bob Murray has to be fired.

#3279 ladiesandgentlemen

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 09:55 AM

... Meanwhile, Columbus, Edmonton, Anaheim are operating as the farm teams. Bob Murray has to be fired.


You make a great point about the "farm team" syndrome.

With the cheapo mentality this franchise has under Murray, no way will we be able to keep Perry and Getzlaf. Unless Boob is lucky enough that they take a gigantic home town discount in both money and term, they will be off to TOR, VAN, or one of the many other franchises that have expressed keen interest in them.

Anaheim will need to step up to the plate and start serving the $50mil helpings that bring in the superstar FA's, or we will be another asterisk in NHL history.

#3280 letsgoducksdotcom

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 10:34 AM

Honestly why would they want to stay when they see other teams making more effort to keep up with the Jones'?

I almost think it would be a bad sign if either or both of these guys is happy to take a 5 year 34 million dollar deal, stay here and play for 8th place every year. I mean if they re-signed now without testing the market I'd take that as a sign they value security, money, sunny weather and good restaurants over winning a Cup.

#3281 TroyLoney

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 10:40 AM

Hopefully Perry & Getzlaf will make Bob Murray sweat and improve the team a bit before they re-sign. If they re-sign immediately that will put no pressure on Murray to improve the team in order to retain them.

#3282 ladiesandgentlemen

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 01:05 PM

Honestly why would they want to stay when they see other teams making more effort to keep up with the Jones'?

I almost think it would be a bad sign if either or both of these guys is happy to take a 5 year 34 million dollar deal, stay here and play for 8th place every year. I mean if they re-signed now without testing the market I'd take that as a sign they value security, money, sunny weather and good restaurants over winning a Cup.


That same thought ran across my mind.

Then I thought of Teemu, who has shown that work ethic in a stable environment can be a part of a successful formula.

But I'm not sure guys that young can take that kind of route... and maybe they shouldn't, necessarily. Their careers and lives are in different stage right now.

And of course, it all comes back to Bob Murray, in my mind. How could either of those guys trust him to keep this franchise in the dogfight when he has shown that he is willing to throw anyone under the bus to keep his job?

Just ask Randy Carlyle.

Maybe they can't see how Murray has run the progress of the Anaheim Brand we have experienced since '03 into the ground. But it shouldn't be hard for them, if they pay any attention to the empty seats in the barn, along with the sweaters and cheering for the opponents.

(and Yeah, I know I'm obsessed with Bob Murray. But I'm convinced he's the core of the problem in Anaheim, from soup to nuts)

#3283 Sloth

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 01:23 PM

Carlyle had to go. Murray has to go. Carlyle was not thrown under the bus just the first casualty. He didnt stop BM from sending DSP to the juniors nor could he form a solid 3rd line that stayed relatively the same throughout the year. Our prospect/roster pool no longer fit with the coaching direction of Carlyle. Our roster/prospect pool no longer puts us in cup contention which is on BM.

#3284 letsgoducksdotcom

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 01:38 PM

...

Maybe they can't see how Murray has run the progress of the Anaheim Brand we have experienced since '03 into the ground. But it shouldn't be hard for them, if they pay any attention to the empty seats in the barn, along with the sweaters and cheering for the opponents.

(and Yeah, I know I'm obsessed with Bob Murray. But I'm convinced he's the core of the problem in Anaheim, from soup to nuts)


They have to be embarrassed when they come out at HOME to less crowd noise than do the Canucks or somebody, right? When they blow it and Chicago scores and the place erupts like you were IN Chicago? When Hiller is taunted in his own arena? They have to hate EVERY minute of that, even if they are making 12,000 dollars a minute or whatever.

#3285 ladiesandgentlemen

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 01:42 PM

Carlyle had to go. Murray has to go. Carlyle was not thrown under the bus just the first casualty. He didnt stop BM from sending DSP to the juniors nor could he form a solid 3rd line that stayed relatively the same throughout the year. Our prospect/roster pool no longer fit with the coaching direction of Carlyle. Our roster/prospect pool no longer puts us in cup contention which is on BM.


I'm totally on record in favor of a coaching change. For more than a couple seasons.

But that doesn't change the fact that man-to-man, Murray did throw Carlyle under the bus. Every single comment he ever made regarding a coaching change, he scoffed at the notion. Every single time. He doggedly stood by Carlyle, even when expert voices in the sport said it could be time for a coaching change. And then Boom!, all of a sudden Carlyle was pushed out the back, and was rolling down the pavement before December hit.

Now I know it's possible that Murray was warned his job was on the line and he took the most drastic measure he could in the shortest amount of time. In fact, I have voiced that, and have really been hoping deep down that this failed GM was beginning to be held accountable.

But there is no doubt that Bob Murray threw Randy Carlyle under the bus.

They have to be embarrassed when they come out at HOME to less crowd noise than do the Canucks or somebody, right? When they blow it and Chicago scores and the place erupts like you were IN Chicago? When Hiller is taunted in his own arena? They have to hate EVERY minute of that, even if they are making 12,000 dollars a minute or whatever.


I would think so.

I know it embarrasses the s* out of me.

Even more than it makes me mad.

(I thought the franchise had finally overcome that)

#3286 letsgoducksdotcom

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 11:36 AM

So, thanks to Bob and Henry and our internal cap and ridiculously underwhelming goal (stay competitive within the internal cap, no long term deals) we finished with 80 points. The Kings had 95 and made the playoffs by 5 points. Enough to get them in to pretty much demolish the President's Cup winner and breeze into the second round.

Season series this year?

We got 4 points in 6 games, they got 10.

TEN.

If we'd have held them to 4 they are out of the playoffs.

That is pathetic. To see the Kings ascension while we continue to fall. How are they letting this happen?

The players, owners, managers, coaches and FANS should be livid.

#3287 ladiesandgentlemen

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 12:31 PM

... That is pathetic. To see the Kings ascension while we continue to fall. How are they letting this happen?

The players, owners, managers, coaches and FANS should be livid.


I wonder about this all the time.

The only answer I can come up with is that the people who actually care have bought into the "yeah, but we are this close to being a great team" fantasy.

#3288 letsgoducksdotcom

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 12:41 PM

I know this horse was dead long ago, but it's like no one notices. We finished FIFTEEN POINTS OUT OF THE PLAYOFFS. We are a bottom feeder that had one 22 game great streak. LA has invested in crazy scheme after crazy scheme (mostly I'm thinking about Dustin Penner here) TRYING to win or at least go deep into the playoffs. And it's working. We can't touch their depth at forward we are so far behind it's not funny. But hey, with that awful Cup Winning Randy Carlyle out of the way, we are all set now! Just a tweak here or there and if all our rookies become seasoned veterans and the cow jumps over the moon we should be OK. #believe.

#3289 ladiesandgentlemen

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 01:07 PM

Posted Image

mumble* let's go ducks *mumble

#3290 letsgoducksdotcom

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 02:05 PM


Asked what he felt the club needed going forward, General Manager Bob Murray said “we just need our younger players to mature faster.”

“And we need a couple of more pieces,” he added.


LOL. A couple more pieces. If not RIGHT NOW then over the next 12 months for sure we are losing Saku, Teemu and Blake. We are losing Lydman and Visnovsky in 12 months. We need FIVE, not a "couple" pieces just to stand pat - which is finishing 15 games out of the playoffs.

And we need our young players to mature faster? DSP and Fowler aren't fast enough? WTF, man.

#3291 DuckNewbie

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 02:21 PM

I know this horse was dead long ago, but it's like no one notices. We finished FIFTEEN POINTS OUT OF THE PLAYOFFS. We are a bottom feeder that had one 22 game great streak. LA has invested in crazy scheme after crazy scheme (mostly I'm thinking about Dustin Penner here) TRYING to win or at least go deep into the playoffs. And it's working. We can't touch their depth at forward we are so far behind it's not funny. But hey, with that awful Cup Winning Randy Carlyle out of the way, we are all set now! Just a tweak here or there and if all our rookies become seasoned veterans and the cow jumps over the moon we should be OK. #believe.



I think you need to take a step back, and get a little perspective. Your current dissatisfaction with the Ducks, (and hatred for the Kings?), is clouding your view of the “big picture”.

First, before you hold up the Kings as the model for progressive team management, consider:

- They missed the playoffs every year from 2003 to 2009, never finishing above 10th, and more than once below 13th.
- In the past 3 years when they made the playoffs, they never finished over 6th in the West, and this is their first playoff series win since....God only knows.
- Only recently have tried “crazy scheme after crazy scheme”, with Penner being really just the first. Before then, I’m sure every Kings fan would out-shout you with complaints about being stagnant.

And how did they go from bottom feeder to playoff first round winners? They developed players from the inside. All of those useless kids, who Ducks fans want to trade away and give up on, were the source of their ascent!

Look at the other teams still in the running in the West: St. Louis, Phoenix, Chicago, Nashville. Were these consistent “free-spending”, buy a cup type teams? Far from it. They were ALL built on drafting players, and then augmenting when the time was right.

To relate that to the Ducks, think 2005-6, when the team made a run that said they were close. What did the GM do? THEN he hatched a “crazy scheme” to bring in Pronger.

This is not to say that all-is-great in Ducks Land, and we have nothing to worry about. There are valid complaints about what Bob did, (or didn’t do), for the 2011-12 season. There are valid concerns about whether he is the guy to keep running this team.

But don’t go claiming that the Ducks are somehow “special” in their failure for a one, (or three if you prefer to stretch it), year sequence.

The core is there....assuming the core just had a bad year.
The Kids are there, and developing at a reasonable pace.
Management has stated that big moves will be made, when the time is right. (Reference: Heard it with my own ears at SSH meeting with Bob, two seasons ago.)

But don’t go touting the Kings as some kind of model for team building. With the exception of this year, I don’t think you’ll have much luck comparing their recent history to that of the Ducks.

Here’s to hoping the “Built From Within” Blues do a number on the Kings in the second round. Maybe that will make all of us feel better.


#3292 HockeyHeaven

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 03:32 PM

The Blues have some good to great young players (Backes, Berglund, Perron, Pietrangelo, Oshie, Polak) and one lifer (Jackman), but here is the list of Blues who played in at least 4 out of their first 5 playoff games (outside of Halak) who played with other NHL teams before the Blues:

1. McDonald
2. Arnott
3. Shattenkirk
4. Halak - injured
5. Langenbrunner
6. Steen
7. Colaiacovo
8. Nichol
9. Stewart
10. Sobotka
11. Crombeen
12. Russell
13. Elliott

7 forwards, 3 dmen, and both goalies. So, you have to have success with prospects, you have to make good trades, and you have to be smart in acquiring FAs. And have the right coach!



The last three seasons, the Kings (along with a boatload of other teams) have been more successful than the Ducks. That's just the last three seasons, but that is also just the truth.

Kings - 1 postseason series win (so far) in two postseason appearances
Ducks - 0 wins in 1 appearance.

Don't want that to become the norm. The last three seasons, they have been one step above a doormat. Call them "door knobs". That kinda fits.......

#3293 DuckNewbie

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 03:33 PM

And while I'm feeling my oats....

Who would you say was the most aggressive over the last couple of years is trying to build a team? What team really made moves to upgrade their team from nothing, and turn it into something?

I'd say you could make a strong case for our old friend Brian Burke.

- Made a bold move to get Kessel
- Another bold move to get Phaneuf
- Took a chance on some guy named Lupul
- Pulled in all kinds of role players like MacArthur, Lombardi, Armstrong, Steckel, Liles

And what did he get out of it? He finished below the Ducks.

It ain't easy. It ain't science. There's a lot of art and luck in the process.



#3294 HockeyHeaven

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 03:43 PM

I would also throw NYR, SJS, FLA, and MON in the "aggressive" pile in regards to building a team from outside parts this season and/or the last couple. No Cups so far!

#3295 DuckNewbie

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 04:03 PM

...
7 forwards, 3 dmen, and both goalies. So, you have to have success with prospects, you have to make good trades, and you have to be smart in acquiring FAs. And have the right coach!


Fair enough. Although, some of those players have been with the Blues for 4 or 5 years, (Colaiacovo, Crombeen, McDonald), and bringing them in probably isn't the identifiable source of their recent success. Afterall, they finished 11th last year.

As you state, that's probably the Coach, more than anything.

But, you can't say they are one of the big "buyers" in the league, and always in on the red hot UFA's. The "crazy scheme" players.

#3296 HockeyHeaven

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 04:16 PM

...
But, you can't say they are one of the big "buyers" in the league, and always in on the red hot UFA's. The "crazy scheme" players.


True.

#3297 letsgoducksdotcom

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 06:59 PM

Well it's fair to say I am overdoing it and that I do not agree with the way the Kings have run their organization. But I do think that they have spent the money, made the trades, and added the impact players .... in the last 3 years .. that we have utterly failed to do. Carter and Richards were BIG risks, and while they are paying dividends now, they have very long contracts. That will hurt them eventually.

I disagree that they've done it by being patient though. They have taken their "core" and changed it entirely. Brown and Kopitar are the only guys they've really hung on to that have made a difference. They got LUCKY on Quick .. Bernier was supposed to be Quick and he's not. JMFJ gone, Cammalleri, Lubo all gone. Picks traded, prospects traded. They are HARDLY a team built through the draft (though, they did have a lot of HIGH draft picks after sucking for so long, mostly they have moved those picks around and acquired guys like Richards, Scuderi, Stoll, Greene, Carter, Williams, Penner, Gagne, Mitchell.

They are IN THE GAME, They are making an efforr to win a Cup. We are not. Our GM has said as much. You don't hear talk of internal caps or "trying to stay competitive" in LA.

Going badk 10 years is not what I'm talking about. We owned those fools for 7 of those 10 and I thank Burke, Bryan Murray, Samuelli and company for that. But it's changed for the worse.

We now are a team losing significant players in the next 12 months and sooner, and I don't care what Bob Murray says at a sth meeting 2 years ago, when since then he's said he knew this team wasn't gonna win a Cup, he has to stay in an internal cap, our young players have to mature faster and he's looking at a couple of tweaks .. when his past tweaks have been Aaron Voros, etc.

But what you say, despite me not really wanting to admit it, is true. We do have good prospects. We do several good pieces of a "core". I am going crazy watching King fans yuck it up and I'm just furious that I feel like the only one (well besides 3 or 4 on her) that seems even mildly pissed about it.

I am hoping that Bob makes a decision here - WE WILL GO WITH YOUTH and stick to it. Palmieri, Etem, DSP, Holland, Vatonen, Schultz if we can pull it off ... TRIAL BY FIRE. They are all in. OR, take the other road. Make a couple Carter/Richards deals and GO FOR IT while we still have Teemu, Saku and Getz/Perry.

I fear of course the hybrid that we've seen for 3 years. Try and fill the seats, don't take any risks. THAT SUCKS.

But is there even one team in the league that DOESN'T have a group that can match Getz Perry Ryan Fowler? Are our prospects gonna make up for the loss of Lydman, Visnovsky, Blake, Selanne, Koivu? I think that absent a really BIG effort to go get a couple of DIFFERENCE makers in the offseason, we will, at best, have another year of hoping we play out of our minds to get in the playoffs down the wire.

I genuinely believe we are closer to being the 1995 Ducks than we are the 2007 Ducks and that we are more than just a little bit behind teams like the Kings.

Last thing, I'm not advocating "free spending". I am saying that we have wasted really good contracts with Perry and Getzlaf.

#3298 Sloth

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 08:27 PM

If you take out the Kings and look at the Ducks objectively the problem is making the right trade at the right time. We lost Max Lapierre, Joffrey Lupul, and Jake Gardiner without getting equal or greater return. There is no trade I can think off the top of my head were Bob Murray was the clear victor. We also failed to take advantage of the TD like the Avs did with Mcginn and the Sabres did with Hodgson. Sure we might not have won but we didnt gamble except on the wild chance of us making it to the playoffs before our 2nd line retired and Visnovsky and Lydman continue to trend downward.

Its that shot in the arm the GM is suppose to provide that isnt there. Instead we have a guy telling the news media this was a playoffs team not a Stanley cup team. When he does come down from his mountain its to threaten to burn the whole team to the ground only to make no trades other than some AHLers.

The core is there....assuming the core just had a bad year.
The Kids are there, and developing at a reasonable pace.
Management has stated that big moves will be made, when the time is right. (Reference: Heard it with my own ears at SSH meeting with Bob, two seasons ago.)


That has got to be the most vacuous statement I've seen. How long have we been using Blake/Koivu/Selanne as our 2nd line? What is the ratio of us getting into the playoffs to not getting in under BM? And where are we trending in regards to the Stanley Cup? The opportunities were there but we decided to stay pat and hope for the best

I have faith in the Ducks, I just have no faith in BM to get us there.

#3299 TroyLoney

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 08:56 AM

LGD.com's point struck home - the Kings are actively and aggressively trying to win a Stanley Cup. The Ducks are not. That makes me both sad and angry all at the same time. The difference between the two organizations? They have a good GM and the Ducks don't. It's that simple.

#3300 ladiesandgentlemen

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 09:40 AM

LGD.com's point struck home - the Kings are actively and aggressively trying to win a Stanley Cup. The Ducks are not. That makes me both sad and angry all at the same time. The difference between the two organizations? They have a good GM and the Ducks don't. It's that simple.


Bingo.

Thank you for bringing this back to focus.




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