21 replies to this topic

[ducksfan95]

Since were all debating how much money bobby should get in the next few months i thought i would post a question. who has the most NATURAL talent on the ducks.

take your pick and post why

[ducksfan13]

i gotta say getzy.. perry and bobby are obviously great but getzlaf makes some of the best plays on the ice i have ever seen. I wish sometimes he wouldnt try the impossible play, but if anyone is going to make the play work, getzy will

[20rules]

I say #15, BUT he lacks maturity. Getting stupid PIMs and not playing up to what we all know he is capable of is frustrating.


Bobby is more mature than Getz. imho.

[TheSniper]

I say #15, BUT he lacks maturity. Getting stupid PIMs and not playing up to what we all know he is capable of is frustrating.


Bobby is more mature than Getz. imho.

ditto...getzy hands down...i dont think he has had to work very hard to be the player that he is today where bobby and perry had to work much harder....

[Reb]

ditto...getzy hands down...i dont think he has had to work very hard to be the player that he is today where bobby and perry had to work much harder....

I say Teemu Selanne!
He's been a natural all the way through his career except for a couple of seasons when he was traded to S.J. and "his pal, his buddy" talked him into Colorado.
When you are a Jet you are a Jet all the way and when you are a Duck, man, You ARE a DUCK!!!

[RGS_Quack93]

Selanne hands down. Getz is very very good but Teemu is Finnish Flash, dudes stick handling, scoring presence and speed even at his age is still comparable to Getz other than the fact that Selanne can still score way more goals, compare the 2's rookie seasons and they arent even comparable.

[Captain-Crunch]

Crap, I didn't see the "other" option.

[Mukduk]

Getzlaf has everything, size, stick handling, great shot, and decent speed. The only problem he has is that he passes TOO much. Selanne, now, can only use his speed rarely and his stick handling is almost completely gone, but he knows how to be at the right place on the power play and puts the puck in. So natural talent will have to go to Getzlaf.

[DungMasterFang]

Selanne easily... It's not like his natural talent has gone anywhere. His body is just wearing down, but he still at the tender age of 39 is among the best goal scorers in the league.

[432j]

Hands down, Scott Niedermayer.

[plasmon]

Selänne, he wasn't called the Finnish Flash for nothing. You can't teach speed. Today he just shows flashes of that Flash, but that is all natural. And those sweet passes he makes to an open man, I'd like to see someone who was taught that level of skill and didn't have that skill to begin with.

[Sojourn]

Hands down, Scott Niedermayer.

This.

High hockey IQ, great vision, an amazingly gifted skater. He makes the players around him better. He has the most natural talent, IMO.

After him, I'd pick Getzlaf. Even ahead of Selanne. Selanne is a gifted goal-scorer, but Getzlaf is also possessed of tremendous vision, ridiculously good hands, and a shot that almost any player would envy.

Selanne would be #3 on my list. He has great natural talent, particularly in scoring goals and with an incredible release, but I think Scotty and Getzlaf just have more of it, and in more areas. Selanne has speed that you can't teach, and the ability to find the back of the net in ways that boggle the mind, but I think his natural talent is more one-dimensional than Niedermayer and Getzlaf possess.

[notsgnivil]

This.

High hockey IQ, great vision, an amazingly gifted skater. He makes the players around him better. He has the most natural talent, IMO.

After him, I'd pick Getzlaf. Even ahead of Selanne. Selanne is a gifted goal-scorer, but Getzlaf is also possessed of tremendous vision, ridiculously good hands, and a shot that almost any player would envy.

Selanne would be #3 on my list. He has great natural talent, particularly in scoring goals and with an incredible release, but I think Scotty and Getzlaf just have more of it, and in more areas. Selanne has speed that you can't teach, and the ability to find the back of the net in ways that boggle the mind, but I think his natural talent is more one-dimensional than Niedermayer and Getzlaf possess.

I think that is a pretty reasonable analysis. I'm curious to see who you would place at 4 and 5 - presumable Bobby Ryan and Corey Perry, but which is which (you could probably also make an argument for Lubovis and maybe even Koivu, but it might be hard to justify). I would give Perry the nod over Ryan for reasons similar to your analysis - Ryan seems to have a 'higher talent level' at specific skills, but Perry has a 'higher talent level' average across skills (or something like that). I guess I think Perry has a much higher 'hockey iq' than Ryan and it makes up for him being a lousy skater and only a 'pretty good' puck handler. That being said - they're pretty close.

[Sojourn]

Well, internally I rank certain skills by how important I consider them. Vision is high on the list for me, and I definitely think Perry has shown more vision than Ryan has. I think Perry sees the ice better, and reads plays better. So I'd give him the edge in both vision and hockey IQ(I think his hockey IQ can be underrated). Perry has a great nose for the net, in a way I don't think Ryan has, but I do think Ryan is the more natural goal scorer. I know that sounds strange, but Perry is someone who seems to go to the right "dirty" areas to bang the puck home, while Ryan seems to be good at finding the holes a little further out from the net, similar to Selanne.

Neither one of them are natural skaters, so while I'd say Ryan is a better skater, it's a small difference when we're talking about natural talent. That being said, Ryan is clearly the more mobile of the two. Where they are probably closest is in terms of hands, and both have sick hands, just different ways of using them. Ryan is more of a dangler who will go one on one with a player and get around him. Very highlight reel type stuff. Perry can stickhandle in a phone booth, and he uses that ability to great effect along the boards to gain separation during cycling. His style seems more utilitarian.

So, for me, I think it's all pretty close. Both players have their own styles, and they are both about even in their own way until you get to the vision and hockey IQ, where I think Perry has a clear edge to Ryan. I also think Perry has a competitive edge to his game that Ryan has only showed in smaller spurts. I'm not sure if you could call that a natural talent or not(I would), but it certainly seems to be something that some players have and others don't. I'm not saying Ryan doesn't have it, but I just haven't seen as much of it from him. I've yet to see Ryan step up in a big way when it matters the most, such as in the Olympics or the Playoffs, minus one or two games here and there.

I guess the summary is that I consider Perry the more complete player, but he also possesses that rare gift of being able to elevate his game when it matters the most. Ryan is the more natural goal-scorer, but I think he has less positive impact during the game than Perry. This is especially true if Ryan isn't scoring goals. Perry can have a good game without getting a point, but Ryan? If he isn't scoring he can sometimes seem invisible. Some of that is natural, and some of it isn't. I think it's tough to separate one from the other at times.

[paul4587]

Talent is such a subjective term, when I think of talent I think of someones physical tools as opposed to the mental characteristics that make players so good. Someone like Kovalev would be amongst the most talented players in the league but his hockey sense and effort levels have prevented him from being as good as he could have been.

On the Ducks I'd say it's Getzlaf. He has amazing hands, can pass and shoot as well as anyone in the league and is incredibly strong on his skates. The only physical weakness I can identify is his foot speed, which really isn't that slow once he hits full stride anyway. He and Bobby Ryan are head and shoulders above the rest of the team as far as physical talent goes IMO.

[Sojourn]

By your own argument, why wouldn't the mental characteristics qualify? You said it yourself, Kovalev is incredibly talented at a physical level, but mentally not so much. There are plenty of other players who would also qualify. Look at one of the best players in the league - Sidney Crosby. For all of his talent, one of the aspects of his game that might make him the best in the league is more than just his physical talent. It's his competitive nature, the mental aspect he brings.

If some players have it, and some players don't, how does that not quality? Hockey IQ would be a mental aspect as well. Lidstrom could very well be one of the smartest players to ever play the game. How is that not natural talent? It certainly impacts his game. Take away his hockey IQ, and what is he? He's certainly not one of the best defensemen to ever play.

At any rate, I don't consider Getzlaf and Ryan head and shoulders above the rest of the team. Neither one of them are natural skaters. Getzlaf might be strong on his skates, but he's had to work hard to get there. Compare his skating when he entered the league to his skating now. That isn't natural talent. Bobby Ryan doesn't even enter the equation in terms of skating. Getzlaf is a good candidate, in my opinion, for one of the most naturally talented players, but Bobby Ryan? No way. His hockey IQ, his vision, and his skating are well below a number of other players. He's a natural goal scorer, and he has great hands, but compared to the likes of Getzlaf, Niedermayer, Selanne, and even Perry? I think all of them bring more natural talent to the table. In the case of Niedermayer, Getzlaf, and Perry they bring a more well-rounded set of skills, as well as a higher hockey IQ, while Selanne is simply a more gifted goal-scorer, while also being a better skater, and having that competitive edge. The only thing Ryan has over Selanne is his hands. You could argue that Ryan is a poor man's Selanne, who is slower, but with better hands. Also, what I think hurts Getzlaf, and again, I consider the mental aspect a part of this equation, is that his competitiveness seems hot and cold.

I just don't believe that the term "natural talent" is limited to physical attributes. That just doesn't make sense to me. Not at all. Consider the player that many consider the best to ever play - Wayne Gretzky. What natural physical attributes did he have over other players? What made him special? Take away his hockey IQ, his vision, and his competitiveness, and you no longer have Wayne Gretzky. Those are natural abilities that he brought to the game. You can't teach that. Hell, that's one of the reasons I felt he failed as a coach. He saw the game in ways no one else could, but that vision is also something he couldn't pass on to his players. If that isn't natural talent, what is?

[2forroughing]

In my estimation, it is a close call between #8 and # 27.

I don't think it comes as naturally for Bobby, he has to work more at it (not that this is a bad thing). Getzy could learn a bit from him in this aspect. Getzy has a natural ability, but doesn't always put forth 100% effort. If he did, then he could be up with 8 and 27.

[paul4587]

By your own argument, why wouldn't the mental characteristics qualify? You said it yourself, Kovalev is incredibly talented at a physical level, but mentally not so much.

That's why I consider talent a subjective term. When I think of vision and hockey sense I attribute it to intelligence, not talent. The best players are both talented and intelligent. Obviously most categorize the intelligence aspect into evaluating talent, I tend to separate the two.

[Reb]

So ... based on your observation I STILL consider it to be the elder statesman, (until he announces his retirement) the one, the man, the DUCK, Teemu Selanne!!! Huzzah!!!

[Getzlaf_15]

1. Getzlaf
2. Bobby
3. Perry

[ZTHER]

Selanne is head and shoulders above everyone when it comes to natural talent.

Niedermayer is next in my book... tons of smarts for sure, killer poke-check... but just watching him skate says it all.

[HockeyHeaven]

Selanne and Niedermayer have an "unfair" advantage. They have played at a high level since Getzlaf, Perry, and Ryan were in elementary school.

All of those guys are very talented. But the only way to truly judge them would be on what they have shown. Selanne and Niedermayer have "shown" way more than the other three, career, season, you name it.

If you looked at all five guys, just two years into their NHL careers (because that's Ryan's time in), it would go:

1. Selanne
2. Niedermayer





3a. Ryan Getzlaf
3b. Bobby Ryan
5. Corey Perry

That big gap means the bottom three lag behind the top two. Selanne and Niedermayer are phenomonal hockey players - sure fire HOF'ers and generational guys. They didn't get to that point just on hard work and stats. They have talent oozing out of their pores.

The bottom three could also reach those heights. But I don't look at any of those three, right now, and say it's a lock. Two years into Selanne's and Niedermayer's careers, it would have been a much better bet.