14 replies to this topic

[Dark Knight]

"In Sunday's Pittsburgh Post-Gazette, Penguins player-owner Mario Lemieux suggested that the players need to understand the overall economics of the game, not just their own contracts, and that failing to get a new collective bargaining agreement in place soon would be bad for everyone's bottom line." No kidding Einstein.

LINK

[Just Duckie]

Yes, Mario is only stating the obvious. The problem is that the players won't accept the obvious.

Something Mario did say that was enlightening was that he was led to believe by some players that the NHLPA was willing to propose as salary cap of $45M (down from the previous offer of $49M) and that was why he and Gretzky joined the negotiations. But it turned out that the NHLPA never had any intention of coming in with a new offer. Gretzky said pretty much the same thing last week (that both he and Lemieux were misled by the players). Bettman said that the NHL was invited by the NHLPA to reopen negotiations, which of course Goodenow totally denied. Based on what Lemieux and Gretzky both have said, I would tend to believe (I can't believe I am saying this) Bettman rather than Goodenow on this point.

The other side of the problem is that it appears that there were enough owners (at least eight) who would have vetoed any salary cap proposal greater than $42.5M. If these eight are so adamant about that number, this is a big problem. There were some reports that the $45M number was acceptable by 16 teams, including the bigger market teams (obviously). So the owners need to breech their own divisions. Maybe the eight increasing their ceiling, or some of the 16 willing the share some of their big market revenue with the smaller market teams.

Whatever We still don't have NHL hockey, that hasn't changed

[Baltic Gal]

Yes, Mario is only stating the obvious.  The problem is that the players won't accept the obvious.

Something Mario did say that was enlightening was that he was led to believe by some players that the NHLPA was willing to propose as salary cap of $45M (down from the previous offer of $49M) and that was why he and Gretzky joined the negotiations.  But it turned out that the NHLPA never had any intention of coming in with a new offer.  Gretzky said pretty much the same thing last week (that both he and Lemieux were misled by the players).  Bettman said that the NHL was invited by the NHLPA to reopen negotiations, which of course Goodenow totally denied.  Based on what Lemieux and Gretzky both have said, I would tend to believe (I can't believe I am saying this) Bettman rather than Goodenow on this point.

Mario said it was some players that he talked to, not the NHLPA, thats a big difference. If these "some players" are not on the board of the union or in any high ranking position with in the union, then he should have called Goodenow and find out if what he was hearing was true. And even if they were, it's only common sense to call the boss of the union to find out if it's true. From what he says, he never did that. Nor did the NHL. Nothing can get done with out Goodenow being involved. They (Mario and the NHL) should know that. No matter who told him, with out getting it from Goodenow, it simply is rumors and nothing more.

The other side of the problem is that it appears that there were enough owners (at least eight) who would have vetoed any salary cap proposal greater than $42.5M.  If these eight are so adamant about that number, this is a big problem.  There were some reports that the $45M number was acceptable by 16 teams, including the bigger market teams (obviously).  So the owners need to breech their own divisions.  Maybe the eight increasing their ceiling, or some of the 16 willing the share some of their big market revenue with the smaller market teams.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

From what I understand, if Bettman backs a deal it'll only take 16 teams to make it official. But if Bettman doesn't , then it takes only 8 teams to kill a deal. If the rumors about the 16 vers 8 teams are true, then it's Bettman who is the key. We'll need him to back a deal with a higher salary cap in order to get something done.

*sigh* But I don't think that'll happen.

[ahtikullervo]

No hope in the situation...

It looks as this lockout just does not end...

[Veca]

Bettman >> .......... Goodenow >>

Two of a kind....IQ tests are calling these two........

[Just Duckie]

Mario said  it was some players that he talked to, not the NHLPA, thats a big difference.  If these "some players" are not on the board of the union or in any high ranking position with in the union, then he should have called Goodenow and find out if what he was hearing was true. And even if they were, it's only common sense to call the boss of the union to find out if it's true.  From what he says, he never did that. Nor did the NHL. Nothing can get done with out Goodenow being involved. They (Mario and the NHL) should know that. No matter who told him, with out getting it from Goodenow, it simply is rumors and nothing more.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Who knows who those "some players" were. Maybe "some players" were part of the NHLPA executive board, perhaps Trevor Linden? Is it known specifically that Gretzky and Lemieux did not speak to a "players" who were connected to the PA's leadership in some capacity? I find it hard to believe Gretzky and Lemieux would agree to be part of the meetings if they hadn't had some sort of contact with NHLPA's leadership. The NHLPA executive board was there also, so they obviously knew Lemieux and Gretzky would be there and it was known that Goodenow and Bettman would not be there during the discussions.

We don't know who the "some players" were. But from what both Lemieux and Gretzky have said, it's clear that they were led to believe that both sides were willing to come back to the table. However, when the meeting convened, the players (meaning the NHLPA) didn't even want to address the salary cap, which supposedly has been the major sticking point. Vincent Damphousse brought of every other issue in the CBA but the salary cap.

If enough players feel strongly that Goodenow misled them, which I think he did when he proposed the salary cap after telling the players from the very beginning that this is something the NHLPA would not consider, then I think they could get something done without Goodenow.

I'm finding it curiouser and curiouser that all this bad information regarding a pending settlement was "leaked" to the major media outlets and even to players in Europe. If both sides were so far apart and neither had any intention of moving off their respective salary cap numbers (and the players weren't even will to discuss it all), why was the meeting called in the first place? All of this politiking is disgusting.

[Just Duckie]

Bettman >>          ..........      Goodenow >>   

Two of a kind....IQ tests are calling these two........

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Too true Veca. The league and the players need to dump both of these bozos.

Here's an interesting article on what one reporter was able to find out about the Saturday meeting:

link

[DropThePuck]

Here's an interesting article on what one reporter was able to find out about the Saturday meeting:

link

Thanks for the link JD! The author certainly expresses how I try to still think of the game:

The NHL's Golden Pond was a place for entertainment over generations where memories were made, traditions were treasured, and dreams came true. The beauty of a pro game was measured in split-second speed, skill, or feisty heart-and-soul character.

But it's frustrating to see what it's come to ... (tho' the author probably meant to write "Westminster")

There was a report the other day that last weekend's Westchester Kennel Club Show at Madison Square Garden drew higher TV ratings than last year's Stanley Cup playoffs.

That's it. When watching Molly the poodle and Rover the Dalmatian beat the Bruins against Montreal, what has this world come to?

Talk about a major league sport that's gone to the dogs.

[Veca]

On...

[Baltic Gal]

Mario said  it was some players that he talked to, not the NHLPA, thats a big difference.  If these "some players" are not on the board of the union or in any high ranking position with in the union, then he should have called Goodenow and find out if what he was hearing was true. And even if they were, it's only common sense to call the boss of the union to find out if it's true.  From what he says, he never did that. Nor did the NHL. Nothing can get done with out Goodenow being involved. They (Mario and the NHL) should know that. No matter who told him, with out getting it from Goodenow, it simply is rumors and nothing more.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Who knows who those "some players" were. Maybe "some players" were part of the NHLPA executive board, perhaps Trevor Linden? Is it known specifically that Gretzky and Lemieux did not speak to a "players" who were connected to the PA's leadership in some capacity? I find it hard to believe Gretzky and Lemieux would agree to be part of the meetings if they hadn't had some sort of contact with NHLPA's leadership. The NHLPA executive board was there also, so they obviously knew Lemieux and Gretzky would be there and it was known that Goodenow and Bettman would not be there during the discussions.

If those players he talked to were part of the executive board Mario would have said so. He said that some players told him that the NHLPA were going to make an offer, not that the union told him that they were going to make an offer.

We don't know who the "some players" were.

Oh I think we might:


There was reports that Roenick and several other players moved independently in a bid to get a solution. Linden said while their intentions were good, it had not helped.

"I don't think it was helpful to the process. It probably sent, and it's unfortunate, the wrong message to the other side but at the same time their intentions were to help the process."

I'm finding it curiouser and curiouser that all this bad information regarding a pending settlement was "leaked" to the major media outlets and even to players in Europe.  If both sides were so far apart and neither had any intention of moving off their respective salary cap numbers (and the players weren't even will to discuss it all), why was the meeting called in the first place?  All of this politiking is disgusting.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm sure at some point the stories will start coming out. Should make for fun reading. I'm with you about the politiking. I wish they would just stop with the name calling, the PR moves, the whinning and just sit down and get something done.

[Veca]

Roenick? The Roenick???? I see his fingerprints all over this crime!! Love that boy, but he has a mouth that never stops and he for sure ain't the brightest bulb on the tree....
I just don't know why they would let him get involved. He is still sooooooooo concussed I fear!!

[Dark Knight]

Roenick? The Roenick???? I see his fingerprints all over this crime!! Love that boy, but he has a mouth that never stops and he for sure ain't the brightest bulb on the tree....I just don't know why they would let him get involved. He is still sooooooooo concussed I fear!!    

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[Just Duckie]

Yes and like a good little boy, JR apologized to the 150 players gathered in Toronto. If he did try to circumvent Goodenow and the NHLPA, he's paying for it now.

So Lemieux and Gretzy may have been misled by JR and some other players (perhaps including Jerome Iginla and Shane Doan, who do happen to be team reps) into thinking the NHPLA was going to bargain. However, it was Trevor Linden who invited Gretzky and Lemieux to be part of the negotiations. Linden also later said is was misfortunate the NHL gave them the wrong message that the players, meaning the NHLPA, were willing to discuss the salary cap. Wait, I thought it was a splinter group of players that gave Gretzky and Lemieux that impression. Whatever Trev.

Linden also wants to get more ex-players and GMs (he specifically named Bobby Clarke---seriously??? Maybe Linden has been hit in the head one too many times too) involved and less lawyers. I like the less lawyers. You can start by getting rid of Goodenow and his law degree and Bettman too (I don't care if he's a lawyer).

Funny though for all his addled brain, JR advocated opening up discussions for a salary cap when Goodenow was still saying never, absolutely not! Yet when the NHL is officially shutting down, Goodenow says, wait, wait, we will accept a $49M salary cap?

[Just Duckie]

So the chronology of events could be (speculating):

-Bettman says the final NHL offer is $42.5M, no linkage;

-Goodenow comes in with a final offer of $49M, but indexing (really upward linkage) is one of the conditions;

-Bettman rejects NHLPA offer and cancels the season;

-Rumors start that some players (the splinter group?) want to reopen negotiations;

-Daly and Bettman are told that a group of players and agents are working with the NHLPA on a new proposal, and are asked to call the NHLPA to set up a meeting;

-NHLPA agrees to meet and Trevor Linden invites Gretzky and Lemieux to come to NY;

-Gretzky has been told by "some players" (Roenick, Iginla, Doan?) that the NHLPA is going to make another salary cap offer of $45M;

-Gretzky flies to NYC to join the meeting;

-Both Gretzky and Lemieux are told that neither Bettman nor Goodenow will actually be in the meeting;

-The meeting starts and Vincent Damphousse outlines what the NHLPA wants to discuss. Arbitration, free agency, luxury tax. No discussion on the salary cap;

-Meanwhile leaks are made to major news media covering the NHL. Reporters are told by "reliable player sources" that a settlement is imminent. Staff at the hotel are told to set up a conference room for a press conference;

-The meeting ends with both sides saying they are farther apart then ever. There will be no hockey this season--again;

-Both the NHL and NHLPA are having member meetings this week. More posturing, but no new talks between the two groups are planned. Total speculation/conjecture: Players will soon not be losing paychecks this season, so do not have an incentive to schedule meetings again until September unless the NHL gives them some other incentive. This won't happen, so we will be back where we started from last spring. No more NHL hockey again next year unless replacement players are used.

[Veca]

This whole lockout thing has me going bonkers....